MisIdentified, Again!
May 12, 2009 by: Dave Ozment
Yes, another customer of the web has stumbled onto my site and misidentified my passion for Dave Ramsey and his message for my actually being Dave Ramsey.
Hmm, I won’t recreate how I feel about this, I’ll simply link you back to my write-up of the initial instance.
However, as is my style, I want to address this head on. Therefore I’ve added some clarifying text to my “Contact” page, as this has been the entry point these inquiries.
Additionally, before getting to the details of the story, I’d like to ask you guys your thoughts on the matter. Is there confusion in my presentation? Short of simply changing the name of my site, how would you suggest I further address this confusion?
I look forward to collecting your ideas!
Now on to the fun part… sharing the question and my response. I actually love doing this so I welcome more questions and promise to provide an honest and considered response.
If in this instance, my response seems rushed… it’s because it is rushed. I received the initial mail mere minutes before having to leave to catch a flight. As I would be away from a computer for a few days, I hammered out a quick note and committed to providing more ideas if the recipient was interested. Alas, I received no response…
…and on with the show – names of course have been omitted.
The Original Inquiry:
I have listened to you frequently on radio and appreciated your advice to others. Now we find ourselves in GREAT need of help.
We did the very thing that you have warned others against …..in that we helped out one of our children to the point that we are now without any resources and in tremendous debt due to allowing the use of credit cards and refinancing our home to help this son start up his business. I suppose you could consider all the funds used for him as an “investment” in his business – which looked very good over the years, and still does, but has not delivered as yet – leaving us with a debt load – NONE of which has been incurred for “things” (material desires) or incurred for us personally – that I couldn’t pay off in 2 lifetimes given my income. All the debt is because of unwise allowance of what resources we had for our son’s business endeavor with the following avenues. The grim facts are:
The ‘refi’ on the house balance: $102,760.00
Line of Credit (against the house:……55,862.00+
Credit Cards:……………………….. 75,400.00
My husband is retired with no pension. (Self employed previously.) He is currently receiving just over $1000 a month of Soc. Sec.). I teach piano and with my social security ($605 a month) bring in around $33-3500.00 per month. (We are in our 70’s) Additionally, we have about $9,000.00 in Sep/Ira accounts. Fortunately, I am in good health. My husband is not.
I have spoken directly with the credit card companies – but – as you can imagine – with NO results or hope for bringing down the interest rates - in spite of impeccable payment record which has been maintained either by myself or our son – whenever possible – which has been, until now, a goodly portion of the payments. In fact, letters have arrived from 2 of the card companies INCREASING the % rate — “due to -’ they say’: economic times necessitating that the banks raise their rates so that they might make money” -the reason stated in the letters! (I found this incredibly greedy on their part – especially in light of the current economic conditions!) They really don’t care about the person at all – even if one’s track record is impeccable – which mine is at this point, but can’t keep it going. It is looking very grim now as I simply don’t make sufficient income to keep this up, and the business just isn’t coming alive as hoped. I have paid the entire amounts for the past 4 months and am looking at a 5th one right now with insufficient income to make the ’rounds’.
My questions:
Do you have a productive suggestion regarding contacting HOW to approach credit card companies?
Would you recommend bankruptcy at this point (something we have NEVER before considered or in our wildest imaginings entertained.)?
What can we do to help ourselves keep our home and food on the table at this juncture in our lives?
We do have medical insurance, fortunately (my husband through the V.A. – which has been a HUGE blessing in light of all his health issues), and I will continue to teach as long as humanly possible and students will keep coming. I have managed to hold on to “long-term” care insurance for both of us as well, but I feel ‘painted into a corner” now with no way out. Can you help? We both appreciative your wisdom and willingness to share and look forward to hearing from you.
Thank you so very much.
My Response:
Hello e-mailer. I appreciate your message. I do want to take some time to provide a response to your question. However, I want to point out from the start that I am NOT Dave Ramsey.
My name – as you noticed in my email – is Dave Ozment. I am a huge fan of Dave Ramsey and I even named my blog in his honor – DoYouDaveRamsey.com
As you are looking for Dave Ramsey you may contact him via the email he provides on his radio show – DaveOnAir@DaveRamsey.com
At this moment I can only provide a quick “2 minute” response to your question. But I’ll be happy to come back with a deeper response if you are interested in hearing more from me – Dave Ozment…. please check out my site to learn more about me so you know what you’re getting.
I guess for starters, you have yourself in quite the pickle, but you know that already. Of course you should not have been so free with your money in trying to help your son. I respect your love and willingness to support his endeavors – that’s what good parents do – but there has to be boundaries in terms of what is offered and what is requested. It seems that you guys have crossed that line coming and going.
The first thing you should do is have a heart to heart with your son. He has put you guys in a bad place and that should be pointed out to him. He needs to step up and do what’s right by his parents. He has a TREMENDOUS obligation in that regard. Based on your message I don’t know if he knows that or how he may think about that.
I don’t know how much equity you have in your home or how much other savings you may have to address these debts. I have to assume very little based on your message.
Now here are some steps I’d take – given my VERY LIMITED understanding of your position. Again, if you’re interested in more advice from me then feel free to help fill in some of my gaps and I’ll do what I can to help from an advice stand point.
It is VERY IMPORTANT that you know I am Dave OZMENT not Dave RAMSEY… and there is plenty of information about me and my perspective on my website – DoYouDaveRamsey.com
OK, I wanted to be clear before listing action steps… I’m sure you understand.
-
- talk to you son… he needs to step up. If that means selling the business, closing the business, taking 3 other part time jobs… as a man and as a son he has tremendous obligations here.
- your son needs to take over some of the debt immediately… ideally he puts the debt in his name to completely remove the burden from you.
- you are not bankrupt… not yet anyways…. but your son needs to know that you might be close…and that you both played key roles in this as the giver and taker
- I’m not mad at your son as it may appear…. but I’m not happy with him either…. I hope you understand
- prioritize the debt and the rest of your expenses… food, shelter, electricity, transportation… credit cards fall at the very bottom of this list if not off the list at this time
- Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you drop the long term care insurance!!!
- In that order, some of this debt needs to be transferred to your son… – It sounds like you’ve had good credit until now…. until now being the key… you’re in a place where you need to stop paying on the credit cards while you clean up the rest of the mess. These companies should not have loaned so much money to people of your age nor should you have borrowed. In return… they may not get paid and you’ll have to accept this in the immediate term…. this may be mitigated depending upon actions taken by your son…
Please know that these are only starting steps… and that I’d be more than willing to talk through this with you more if you want.
God Bless you in this challenge.
So, what do you think…. Good advice or not? I’d welcome to hear your thoughts and to learn from your wisdom. Feel free to add your comments below!
One thought that I wanted to add for the purposes of this discussion but was reluctant to include in the message back to a woman in her 70’s – at least not in my initial response – has to do directly with the character of her son.
Clearly his intelligence is in question but his morals and character may be suspect as well. The e-mailer suggested that she has considered the business and investment for many years but that it has never made money. Hmm, has this man – presumably in his 40’s or 50’s – been hiding the business earnings so as to not have to pay the debt back? Has he simply been living on the money while doing nothing?
Is there a sinister undercurrent of this son bilking his siblings out of their inheritance or is he an idiot that thinks his parents are sitting on great wealth – there are people out there who expect more in an inheritance than there is to distribute. I also wonder if her son is calculating enough to know the debt will die with his parents while his business lives on.
I understand that these are tough thoughts to weigh but as I reflect and re-read the original message I simply cannot beat them back.
Again, I welcome your contributions!
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Dave,
You have created quite a comment volley here! I think it is funny that your chops are getting busted for offering a little advice to these folks who reached out to Dave R.
You CLEARLY oulined that you are not him, as to give these folks the chance to completely ignore your comments should they so choose. At that point, it is on them to take all the information they can get and make an informed choice about their situation. Hopefully they will reach out to Dave R. too as you provided them with his e-mail. You have covered your bases as far as I can see…everyone know that free advice is always worth what you pay for it
The Almost Millionaire’s last blog post..Tips for starting a business in Michigan
Thanks TAM… I enjoy the discussion. Most of the folks are reasonable and supportive in their comments, even if challenging parts of my position. I can respect that.
I would always think that more good advice is better then less…. but you’re right about the free advice…
Dave
I think the identity issue is a touchy subject and is a gray area in the ethics debate.
The obvious fact is that you benefiting (financially, professionally) from the Dave Ramsey name/brand. Whether you find no fault or harm in the use (or misuse depending on your point of view) of his name/brand is entirely up to you since you say that the real Dave Ramsey is kosher with it.
I’m not trying to be harsh or out of line, but you appear to give great advice and should have no problem striking out on your own without the indirect benefits from Dave Ramsey Google hits.
Matt SF’s last blog post..Weekend Reads: Stock Market Stuck in a Trading Range Edition
Hey Matt, thanks for your comments! I appreciate your kind words. I have given some thought to changing my name… I’ve tossed it around and agree that it’s probably a good long term move but have not mustered the action yet. I’ve written a healthy bit on this topic as well… I’ve tried to be as transparent at possible but it has still yeilded confusion so perhaps the name change is the best course of action. Hmm…
Meanwhile, I do appreciate your comments and thoughtful advice. I know don’t write about Ramsey nearly enough as the name might suggest so loosening the ties might be fun.
To be fair… I don’t post traffic stats or report on my income because it’s too low to matter. I’m not making money off the name I can assure everyone of that!!
Thanks again!
Dave
I took the Financial Peace University course two years ago. About the credit cards: As I recall, when you stop making payments to the credit companies, you can keep them from taking you to court by giving them a DETAILED plan for paying them back. You would need to look over the course work, but as I recall, you make a table explaining the current income and where it’s all going (rent, insurance, gas, food, utilities, medical bills, and other bills, etc.) You explain to these people that your health and welfare needs come first, and you have every plan to pay them back, but that they are on the dead bottom of the list at this point. You contact them by mail every month after that, updating your plan as you go. Contacting them even more often is not a bad idea (phone calls to them don’t hurt either). As things move along financially, you give them a heads up for when you can begin paying on your account.
Dave taught us that their systems are entirely automated. By contacting them every month BEFORE THE DUE DATE, this kicks your name out of their dead beat list. Dave said they really don’t have a category for people like this-people who cannot pay their credit card bills, but are not dead beats.
Blessings!
Becky, that is great advice… thanks for sharing. Ramsey has talked about communicating with CC’s in a ‘no money’ situation on his radio program but not in the level of detail – at least that I’ve heard. I first think it’s foolish to get so far into debt that you can’t pay but sometimes life happens… in those instances I think it’s reasonable to expect clear, honest, and periodic communication. I doubt this prevents the harrassing phone calls but it puts you in a better position of control and it gives you a great paper trail if/when it ever gets to court. I might even augment this approach with a certified letter to the office of the CEO once at the beginning outlining your plan with perhaps quarterly updates to this level of leadership.
Thanks for sharing!
Dave
Dave gave us a plan for dealing with harassing phone calls as well. If you are clearly not avoiding your creditors, and have done all you can to update them for your financial plans, they have NO legal foundation for harassing phone calls. If they continue to harass you, you can sue them. He goes through the details in his course.
As I recall (and once again, you’d have to check the coursework). If you contact your credit card company BEFORE you get on the dead beat list, you should never get the harassing phone calls to start with. Their computer system is what makes up the dead beat list – not human beings.
Really, it’s best to simply take Dave Ramsey’s course (or at least read his material) instead of going by the word of someone who took the course two years ago!
Blessings!
Thanks for updating… I do really want to take his FPU training but haven’t gotten around to it yet…. thanks for sharing from your class recollections.
As for dealing with harassing calls… I don’t know about his course materials but I love the air horn idea he offers on the radio!
Dave
You were very clear of your identity and offered your advice. I think it is great that you responded instead of letting this person’s worries disappear into cyberspace. Obviously they are lost and unsure where to turn, having a response given back to their email may be the empowerment it takes in order to get them to turn their situation around.
There are plenty of other personal finance bloggers out there who field reader questions despite the fact that they are not financial advisors. So long as the advice is sound and you are clear in your identity, I see no problem.
Keep up the good work! Who knows, the next Dave Ramsey could be Dave Ozment…
Steven@hundredgoals.com’s last blog post..Frugality: Living or Merely Existing?
Yeah… and here’s where it’s obvious that I’m torn because I agree with your comments and thoughts as well. Hopefully I’ve addressed the source of accidental inquiries but I do hope to get more questions and issues that I can address moving forward.
Thanks for your support and comments!
Dave
I would STOP this site completely and change the name asap. Be original and start something new. You are using his name, his trademark and as you have noticed its misleading people.
The Ramsey group will take legal action if they notice that you are giving advice and using his name and will probably shut you down. They could easily argue in court that your site has caused them revenue losses etc and make you pay fines. His name is a trademark and it appears you are using it without permission.
HS
HS’s last blog post..Out Of Control Spending
I love a strong opinion and you certainly have one HS. I appreciate you sharing what’s on your mind.
At the same time, I do hope you looked around and read some of my many words on the topic of my name and my offering of advice. I’m sure you’re harsh stance would soften with only a few moments of effort. I have contacted Ramsey’s team and other sites that invoke his name and I’ve complied with the – albeit limited – feedback I’ve received. I’ve also taken great strides to address the relatively low risk of mis-identification that may confront a ‘normal’ person.
But I do appreciate your warnings. It certainly sounds, from your tone, like you’ve encountered a similar situation in the past. That, or you’re a first year law student. Neither is a bad thing in it’s proper doses. Nonetheless, I appreciate you sharing from your experience.
Thanks again for the warning and your contribution to the discussion! I do love the dialogue!
Dave
Hi Dave – I have been reading your blog since before the first “mistaken identity”, so I’m familiar with the history. Thanks!
I want to be clear – I never meant to imply that you misrepresented yourself or that you weren’t investing effort to make your identity clear. I can appreciate that lengths you’ve gone to and your attempts to be forthright…I read from day 1 very clear on the fact that you were a Ramsey fan and aficionado, and nothing more. You’ve really done everything you can to avoid confusion.
I’m just of the opinion that you need to make clear the error of these well-meaning e-mailers, and if they ask for advice after they are clear on your identity, then go nuts. But I’d be leery to give advice…even if you’re a competent financial professional, answering a brief query without the whole picture of a person’s history and information, puts you in a position of some type of authority, and I don’t see that as the blog’s intent.
I wouldn’t offer people anything directed to them personally unless they specifically inquire of you, for the integrity of your site and your reputation. My Dad is in the business and people can react very harshly when the advice doesn’t produce the results they expect. As a professional, that is to be expected, but as a blogger, you’d avoid a lot of scrutiny by being more general.
If you want to write an offshoot of an email inquiry on the blog and give your advice, that might be a good way to address this issue. For example, posting “I had an emailer inquire this week about mutual funds and thought I’d give my perspective”. You could discuss your point of view, without opening yourself up to scrutiny for given personalized advice.
That’s just my 2 cents – probably worth less with the exchange.
)
I enjoy your site- thanks for the dialogue!
Hey thanks for circling back. I’m glad to hear you’ve been reading along for a while!!! I really appreciate it and I imagine that also helps with the perspective too – knowing a little more about me and what I’m about.
I find myself agreeing with your position while also not disagreeing with what I’ve done…. I suppose I’m either waffling or recognizing 2 reasonable landing spots.
Who knows if I’ll ever receive another inquiry like this – I hope the changes I’ve made to my Contact page will stop inquiries based solely on the confusion factor. I hope I’ve insulated myself from like-kind repeat event. But if not, I’ll surely take greater pause in considering my next steps… and I’ll likely revisit this conversation for perspective.
Thanks for the discussion and exchange of ideas!
Dave
I don’t think you should be answering these financial questions. I would point out that you are not Dave Ramsey and leave it at that. If they further ask for your advice, then go ahead and give it.
But being that the question was given with the belief you’re a finance professional, it’s not appropriate to be giving your advice.
Hey Christy, I appreciate your comment and I think you make a great point. I’ve only recieved questions from folks on 2 occasions and to your point I take it very serious – both the fact that I am not Ramsey and the advice I’ve offered. I’ve also spend time considering whether or not I should even offer the advice in the first place. So I fully respect your position and I can’t completely disagree with its construct. I am not Ramsey and all things being equal I would not have recieved the question were it not for some confusion.
And I might have decided to leave with this same conclusion and not replied with more than an identification clarification. But here’s why I decided to respond. I mentioned that I’ve answered emailed questions only twice and I’ve posted articles for both instances. You’ve read this one based on your comment bu I invite you to check out the first one too….
http://doyoudaveramsey.com/mistaken-identity-leads-good-advice/
There is an honest appeal for help in that message that resonated with me. I simply wanted to help someone in need. I was very clear in identifying myself but as I had access to their information I felt ok in responding with my perspective but also pointing them to Ramsey’s contact information too. I’d NEVER solicit details under a veil of misrepresentation or try to maintain an illusion. In this instance, the reader actually thanked me so that served as a sort of confirmation that I did an ok think – in my mind at least. The second person didn’t but that’s ok too. Perhaps had the instances happened in reverse order I would have made differing assumptions and conclusions.
Also – and this is not intended as an excuse but simply a statement – there may have been a slim chance than they would collect an actual response from Ramsey. The sheer numbers of messages he receives may have prevented it… knowing that, also contributed to my decision to respond.
Finally… I’ve taken great strides to clarify or distinguish my identity snce I’ve been online. Namely I have clarified my identity in my responses to emailers, I’ve added my last name to all my posts, and I’ve updated my About and Contact pages with clear identifying language.
So perhaps that helps provide a glimpse into my decision making process. I’m not so much trying to convince you or change your mind as to let you know that I’ve invested effort and thought into the process. I also think/hope I’ve gotten better in installing buffers to eliminate the confusion from occuring again. Please let me know if you think I’ve gone far enough on that front. I’d welcome additional thoughts you may have there too.
Most of all, I appreciate your comment and concern. It is not something I take lightly. If this is a prevailing opinion then I’ll act accordingly. I very much appreciate your reading and commenting and the opportunity for discussion.
Thanks!
Dave